Forest Bathing, RailsConf, and Developer Communities

• The Nature Fix book
• Outside 365
• RailsCamp in Hawaii

• Webhooks Workshop Github Repo 
• Marp Markdown Presentation Tool
• Ruby Central YouTube Channel 
• RubyConf San Diego
  
  

• Blue Ridge Ruby Conf
• Rails SaaS
• RailsConf
• RubyConf
• RailsWorld
• LaraCon
• WordCamp
• GDC
• Apple’s WWDC
• Google I/O
• Startup Weekends
• NASA Space Apps

• @buildandlearn_
• @cjav_dev
• @colinloretz

CJ: Welcome to Build and Learn. My name is CJ.

Colin: And I'm Colin. And today we are gonna be talking about Rails Conf and other ways for you to get involved with your own local and regional developer communities.

CJ: I am super jealous that you got to go to Rails Conf this year. I was really hoping to go. The timing did not work out, but yeah, I'm, I'm pumped to like, hear how it went and hear about your experience giving a workshop. Because that sounds like it. It was a hit and it was packed and lots of people attended. And I know you and Chris worked really hard on prepping that, so curious to hear how that went. And also like, yeah, I mean, before we get into that though, I wasn't able to go because I've been taking a ton of time off and I was very, very, a f k. This is actually like the first time I'm back on my computer in, in weeks. And so yeah, it, it is so amazing to get offline. It's really refreshing. I think like a lot of people, especially in our industry encounter burnout. I know for sure that I was burnt to a crisp, just kind of grinding it out for years on end and was ready for a break for sure.

Colin: Going from one thing to the next thing, doing multiple things. I mean, us doing this podcast is an extracurricular for us. So, you know, I've, I've definitely been online enough for the two of us. So I, I'm appreciating that you got some time to disconnect a little bit. Sounds like hanging out with the kids, hanging out with the family, that that sounds like a good time.

CJ: Yeah, totally. And I'm, I'm reading this book right now, I think it's called The Nature Fix. And we'll put a l we'll put a link in the show notes, but I'm only like through the first couple major sections. But it's really interesting and it talks about how there's all these studies in Japan and South Korea. Even a couple folks here in, they, they went out in Utah, in the Moab Desert, and they're researching how. Going out in nature can decrease your stress. And so one of the things was like in Japan they have this concept of forest bathing. Have you heard of this? Okay, so this is, it was, it was a new concept to me where you just kind of go out in the woods and like smell the trees and you snap a branch, you kind of like smell inside the branch and you just hear the birds and you hear everything. And so being spring here, everything, like the snow just melted and everything is turning green and the birds are all, all over the place. And so it has been really, really, really rejuvenating.

Colin: Yeah. Like literally coming out of hibernation and like, it's, it's amazing how even just one season makes you like a, like we lose sight of those things and then it starts to be nice outside and you wanna spend more time outside like, Even being in Atlanta, I was expecting Atlanta to be hotter than it is in Reno. And I came back to Reno. It's like 80 degrees here now.

CJ: Oh my gosh.

Colin: So

CJ: Yeah. Did you go, did you get to go outside in Atlanta or were you kind of Mostly Okay. Nice.

Colin: I try to do this thing when I go to conferences or, you know, traveling by myself to new places where I tried to bring my running shoes and go somewhere. And so the conference was very much downtown in Atlanta. Not what you just described, just the opposite of forest bathing. And so I found a cool market that I ran to, which was on the BeltLine. And the BeltLine is this awesome like project that they've been working on since 2005. It connects like a. 12 of their parks and two huge food halls. And so I ended up running 12 miles on Sunday before Rails Comp from food hall to Food Hall Park to park. Like I just took my time. I wasn't racing or anything, I was just like running, but there were like thousands of people walking, riding scooters, riding bikes and you know, just walking from food hall to park to the next park and never even seeing a car because you're just on this miles and miles of. Pedestrian walkway and it, it's very similar to the Highline in New York City. But more outdoorsy especially cuz you're in, you know, Georgia and there's just like green everywhere and in New York it's like you're on the highline but you're still surrounded by sky rises and, you know, high rises and things like that. So it was pretty cool. I was not expecting to run that far. I just was like, okay, I'll run to the next one and then get lunch and then run back. And it just ended up being like almost a half marathon before Rails Comp, but,

CJ: So do you would, was it like an out and back or is there a loop or?

Colin: It was an out and back. Yeah. So there was a little bit of like a sketchy car you know, downtown car infested area that I had to get through. And then once I was on the BeltLine, it just kind of kept going and yeah, it was cool to see.

CJ: Dang. That sounds epic. That sounds so cool.

Colin: I was definitely taking notes cuz I was like, I want to bring, like, why don't we have this in Reno? Like we should, like our Riverwalk is not even this nice. It could be very similar to like the Riverwalk in San Antonio.

CJ: So there is this thing that is new to me being like just just having movement moved to the east coast. It's called rail trails, where there's like old railroad track areas where trains don't go anymore apparently. And they like fill it in with a paved walkway. Is that okay? So.

Colin: It's one of those, yeah.

CJ: Got it. Got it. Yeah, we, I mean, I didn't, I don't know of any of those in Reno. Right. And growing up in Reno, Tahoe, like I didn't see any of that. And so here there's tons, like all over the place. So that's something we've been trying to get out and see more of, but.

Colin: Getting out on the bikes.

CJ: Yeah. And yeah, I mean it was one of, one of our nature things. So we went out and we saw a bunch of friends and family, and we celebrated my grandparents' 70th wedding anniversary in San Jose a couple weekends ago. And despite growing up in. In and around Northern California, Northern Nevada, I had never been to Big Sur. And so we took the kids and drove our little rental, rental car down to Big Sur. And there is this waterfall called Mwa Falls. I dunno if you've seen this, but there, it just like shoots out of the mountain at like, I dunno, 30, 50 feet up and it goes into the ocean. And it's one of the only like two waterfalls apparently. I dunno, it's like in California or like on the west coast that goes like from the mountain, like into the water. And it is just mind-blowingly beautiful. Like it was so, so, so cool to see. So yeah, got got to go do that and. All of these things are just chipping away at that kind of like plaque buildup of anxiety that you get over like years and years of just like cranking on content and you know, stressing about work and kind of constantly being on and, you know, worrying about Slack notifications at 2:00 AM And so yeah, kind of slowly whittling away at that.

Colin: That's, that's really good. Yeah, I think this is something that I've been trying to bring into my daily work. It's like for the amount of time that we spend in front of a computer, balancing it with time, you know, getting out on a bike, going on a run, whatever it looks like for you is super important cuz the computer will always be there. Work will always be there. You gotta take care of yourself. And so, you know, having that balance, it's great that you got to have like a full uninterrupted time of a break. But I think we can, if you can't take lots of time off, either try to find a job that lets you, but also try to find it every day. Cuz it's better to be a little preemptive in preventing the burnout than, than it is to, to like burnout and then have to go reset. And start all over again every time you do that. So definitely feeling that, especially as it's getting nicer outside, more, more bike things. We need some like tech conferences out outside.

CJ: Totally. Yeah. One, one last thing about being outside. There's this new thing called Outside 365 that I just recently learned about, and the goal is to spend at least or like to do one human powered mile. Per day outside and there's a bunch of stuff about all the, the health benefits. But if you go to outside 360 five.blog, you can learn more about that. That also is something that's really compelling and we're trying to do it as a family. It's tough, it's super tough to like line up schedules and weather and whatever, but yeah, going outside is

Colin: I like that. Cool. Actually, that kind of brings me to the idea. There is actually an outdoor rails conference coming up called Rails Camp. And that is in Hawaii. It's very much like an UN-conference, so there's no scheduled talks. I don't even know if the, there's necessarily the need to bring a laptop, but That conference looks cool from just like wanting to hang out with your rails. Ruby Friends make new rails, Ruby friends and go to Hawaii. But rails Comp was not in Hawaii this year. Sadly. And yeah, it was, it was a bummer to miss you this year. Cuz you and I submitted the, the workshop talk together, and then sadly we had to change things up there, but Chris and I had had a good time. We, we learned some new tools. We actually we're trying to figure out how best to teach, you know, a workshop format in, you know, it's a two hour workshop, so like, how best do you. Teach when the audience is all different types of levels and experience, and do they have to have rails installed and what version of Ruby do I need and all these different things. And so we created GitHub. Repo and we like worked very async on it because Chris was in Italy for like two weeks on a food tour, and I was like doing some stuff at work. And so we were just like working on it when we could. And we ended up with like a very much like guided GitHub repo. So, You know, if you're curious how webhooks work in Rails you can actually follow along with this without us having to talk you through it. But it was good to like be able to answer questions while we were going through it. And we used this tool called Mark to make our slides and it was just kind of cool cause we could just copy and paste the README code into Marp and then generate slides and I don't think I'm gonna go back to ever using like a regular keynote or PowerPoint again, just cuz like I always wanna make all the slides look pretty consistent and it just does that for you cuz it's like, this is what an H one is, this is what an H two is, this is what a link is, this is what code looks like. And highly recommend Mark if you're doing any talks like in your company or whatever. Especially cuz you conversion control them too, which is nice.

CJ: Yeah, this looks dope. I think the, any, any time that you can write in markdown When you're writing code, it makes it so much easier because it plays so nicely with GitHub and all the other things. So yeah.

Colin: and it works in VS code. So you can preview your slides and VS code while you're writing them, which is really sweet. And then it'll generate the PowerPoint, the keynote, all that stuff too. So,

CJ: So, was the workshop recorded or what's the best way for people to go consume, consume this after the

Colin: Yeah, so the workshops were not recorded, and this was kind of like the tactics of going to a conference a little bit is that I think a lot of people wanted to go to the workshops and do the hallway track. Because a lot of the talks, most of the talks were recorded. And this is the tricky thing about going to a conference, right? You're spending time and money to go to a thing. Do you spend the time going to the talks, having given talks before? It's very nice to have an audience when you're giving your talks. So like I try to balance between a little bit of going to a workshop that's not recorded. In our case, the workshops weren't recorded. Going to some talks that I really wanna support the speakers at, because again, it's not great to give a talk to an empty room. And then figuring out like, okay, there's like three talks during this hour. Which 1:00 AM I gonna go see in person? Which 1:00 AM I gonna definitely note down for when the videos get released? There were a lot of really good ones that are gonna be coming out on YouTube later this year. So We'll put a link to the Ruby Central YouTube, but there were a lot of like, all four of these sound amazing and I'm just gonna make a note for the future cuz there was definitely some good stuff out there.

CJ: As the barrier to entry. Kind of gets lower and lower for posting stuff on YouTube. I wonder if fewer people or fewer conference organizers will have like recorded talks and do more of the workshop style stuff, because it seems that most people who can prepare for a talk could as easily do it in a video format. Does that, I don't know, does that resonate with you?

Colin: So Andrew Culver from RailsSaas and Bullet Train was talking about this because the problem is sometimes the environment and the recording setup is not awesome, right? As it's like when you have so many speakers and rooms and tracks, you just can't give it the same quality. Right? And you can also do retakes if you do a prerecorded video and things. So at at Rail SaaS, they had a room where they recorded the speaker with like hair, makeup, amazing lighting, amazing background, fully produced artifact that not only the speaker gets to have as a resume thing, but now you have this amazing thing that can be given, you know, later. And then the speaker gave the talk again, live. I think that's a big ask for most speakers, but I think if you like what you just said, I think doing a pre-recorded or a really, like, maybe you don't pre-record it, but you have an amazing video recording studio where they, the talks are recorded at Rails conf, but then there's more workshops. I will say the one thing that I missed at this Rails Conf that seems like a miss, but I think that we'll we'll talk about Rails World in a second, is there was not really like areas to hang out and like we, we hung out where we could and, but there wasn't like couches, Honey Badger had a lounge, which was like amazing cuz there were no other places to really hang out. I think Shopify and Meraki both had like some tables for people to do like pairing sessions and stuff. But you really kind of wanna ha, like, especially if you're gonna go to a conference, it's like, okay. I want to, you know, pair on something. I want to check something out. There were some people demoing some of their new products that aren't out yet, stuff like that. Or even just doing a podcast, like having a podcast recording room, having a recording room for workshops, things like that would've been pretty cool to have. Because then you end up with all these like artifacts and videos and podcasts that come out of Rails Conf instead of the more ephemeral stuff. So that was, that was just something I noticed as like running a coworking space. I think about like having these, like facilitating environments where you want people to hang out and it's like if we put a bunch of couches, some bean bags and some coffee, like people are gonna hang out and chat and that's, that's what you want. Put some whiteboards in there and you're good.

CJ: Nice. Yeah, I You have definitely a, I would say, expert level experience in terms of creating spaces where people collaborate given the the Reno Collective. And so I'm kind of curious to, if we pivot a little bit towards just generally growing developer audiences. I know there's probably a few more things we can sprinkle in about Rails conf as we go, but You know, maybe talking through a roundup of some of the things that you do for building community and and then yeah, in particular one of those obviously being closely related to events. So yeah, I don't know what are like, maybe the, the most important things people need to think about when building an audience and or community more than an audience For sure.

Colin: Yeah, I think the thing that I've been seeing is that people really are craving community more than ever. Which is helpful because you can't really like fake this. You can't force people to come together. Right. And the sad thing about that though is that we used to have more developer conferences, more meetups, Like, honestly, even pre Covid, like 2010 to 2012 was like golden era of, of this stuff. I feel like things have changed a lot. Like I feel like I've been to Heroku events, there was just like a Heroku coffee event. It's like, yeah, we're not gonna have talks. We're just gonna have a Heroku coffee bar. You know? It's very, you know, San Francisco I guess, but, there's that intersection of developers and coffee that's like hard to ignore, right? They just knew that like a lot of our engineers enjoy coffee. We enjoy coffee, let's just host, take over a coffee shop and just have developer conversations. There's no tracks, there's no talks, things like that. And those I think are things that people remember and I think like that Rails Camp idea is a lot like that. We're not gonna do workshops and talks. Those will just happen. People will talk about what they're working on, but people are really craving it. Right? We saw that at Rails Conf this year. People flew from all around the world to come together when sure, we could talk at a Discord, but I wanna meet you. I want to go to dinner. I want to hang out around, you know, a meal and just chat about things. I'm not trying to turn you into a customer. I'm not trying to get you to work for me. Those kinds of things, those won't happen out of those situations, but they're not like a forced function that you're trying to make everybody do.

CJ: Mm-hmm. You and I worked on a couple different local dev meetups when I still lived in Reno. We did Reno JS for a while and then we had the Dev Reno meetup. And when I think back, I think of you as being like the person in Reno who runs dev meetups. And so number one, like what is your motivation or like what is your underlying kind of like, inspiration for getting devs together? We're obviously we're not getting paid for any of it, right? It's all like, volunteer. So like what Yeah. For you, like what, what was your

Colin: I do have, I have to sometimes wonder that myself, and it always comes back to like, if I was in San Francisco or a bigger city, you would have more of these communities. For us in Reno, we've just had a lot of people who will start a thing. And then realize that it's a little bit more work than they anticipated, or they're not being paid for it, so they stop. And for me it's just that, like, I want this community too. And so instead of hoping for somebody else to do it I like to give it, you know, some energy to, to make it happen. The tricky thing is, You know, I want to make sure that DevReno, like if I were ever not in Reno or if I didn't have the time to run it, how does it still exist? Right? It, it's not a good sign if, if when I stop doing it, it just goes away. And I don't think that we've gotten there with DevReno. I think that the, the big thing with DevReno is it's all languages, all platforms, all experience levels. Because when we did have Reno Js and Reno, RB and Reno DevOps and all these different meetups, people were really just like, oh man, we only got like three people to come to the meetup this month. It's just not feeling like it's worth it. But at the same time, when you hear people going into the meetups and they're like 50, 60, 100 people, they're like, man, I really wish like just four of us could go to lunch. And the thing is, it's like everyone then looks to me like, oh, can you organize developer lunches, and it's like, no. You know, everyone, go organize yourself. So we have the slack, we have, you know, meetup, we have Discord, we have all these different things. How do you get people to just go self-organized? And this happens at conferences, right? People end up going out to dinner and meals together and things like that. And it tends to be like, Hey, social plans, like who's gonna go do this? So for me, the motivation behind it is that I want to be a part of those things myself. I think it is hard to do them, even though from the outside they, they look easy. So it, it is a balance for sure. Cuz I don't want to become like a cruise director where I'm like, okay, at nine we're all gonna be going over here to do this. And then the moment you disappear, everything just grinds to a halt.

CJ: Yeah, so I can't remember which podcast I was listening to recently, but it was some venture capitalists talking about their sort of rules of thumb about investing in companies. And I do think of. Any sort of event, conference, meetup, whatever, is almost kind of like a company, right? Like there, there is work to be done every single month. To get people together, you have to go set up the meetup thing. You have to make sure that the space is set up. You have to maybe get a sponsor, get food, get whatever, and. One of the things that the VCs were talking about was that they won't invest in companies that have solo founder. Like it has to be a real, real edge case for them to be open to investing in a solo founder company. Whereas if you have 2, 3, 4 founders, they're much more likely to invest because then you can sort of spread the workload a little bit more evenly and also, There's like just a higher probability it's gonna work out. And so I think in like the, the most recent iteration of Dev Reno that I was participating in, it was me, you and Andrew, nixdorf, like participating a lot. And so I guess like one big takeaway would be don't do it alone. Like don't try to stand it up alone.

Colin: Burnout is real in communities too, right? So like, especially if you feel like it's a thing that you need to turn into a money making, you know, initiative, things like that. I actually want Dev Reno to be like, we want to open it up more and run it more like an open source project, right? There's no reason why it couldn't, especially for people who are early career developers. We need a website. We don't have one, right? It's the, the cobbler's children don't have shoes situation where it's like we have a bunch of developers, but we can't self-organize enough to just build a website, and I don't have preconceived notions of what that should look like. But I'm sure unfortunately there's a whole bunch of people who probably do. So maybe we can help shape it. But then maybe this is a great first project for a junior engineer to, to work with a mentor, do some prs, get PR reviews. It can be just a JAMstack site, doesn't have to be rails, whatever. Right. And we could, if we can scratch together some sponsors to help pay that person so they're not doing free work, then that's even better. Some people are happy to do this for the trade of mentorship and things, but if we can make it sustainable with sponsors, things like that. Like even the other week someone was like, oh yeah, you know, this would be much better if we had food. It's like, if we want food, we can make this happen. Like I'm sure we can get a tools company to sponsor, like, you know, let's get a honebadger, an appsignal, something like that to sponsor the meetup and, you know, and trade for, you know, pizza or whatever it is. But I don't think pizza's why people come to the meetup. So it's, it wasn't important.

CJ: Right. Yeah. I think the for me, I remember wanting to talk to more people about Ruby in Reno and JavaScript. I, I mean, both Ruby and JavaScript I was super into and still am, and I felt like a lot of the devs that I had encountered from I G T or from like these more corporate places, Didn't want to talk about code in the evening. Like they weren't just

Colin: They're just done.

CJ: yeah, they just didn't seem as passionate about it. And I was like, okay, there's, let's create a space that. People can come and hang out and I can geek out with them. You know, like, I mean, at home, I'm not gonna geek out with my kids about this. And so, yeah, I think we, we have the same motivation that is just like, we want to create a place where we can hang out with other people who are interested in the same things we are. And I think at the, at the bottom or like at the end of the day, that feels like a really solid place to start from when you're thinking about starting a conference or meetup.

Colin: Yeah. What are your motivations for like going to conferences or like do you do, is there a local community where you're at now for meetups and things?

CJ: There is a bit of an online community, but I have to drive, I would have to drive about an hour to get to the more serious developer meetups, which I haven't done. I I need to do it just so like get out and, and do that. But Yeah, when it was in Reno and it was 10 minutes away, you know, just like popping offline and zipping down was pretty easy. But it's a bit more of a commitment. So I need to, I need to make the effort to go out and do that. But I, I did join a couple of like, online meetups that were just local people, but they hang out over Zoom and talk about Python or you know, whatever next JS thing that they're geeking out on. So there are definitely, there's definitely a, a community here that I have not like, sort of cracked into or been participating in as much as I should. But when it comes to conferences though, like bigger conferences, I think there's a couple different motivations. Like one is to see and hang out with my friends, and again, just to geek out about the, the same like tools and code and yeah, just kinda like be with like-minded people who are also passionate about the same technology that I am. I would say that, It's also a great opportunity to network and meet other people who are in the same industry, who you might be able to support with something that you know, or they might be able to support you with something they know whether that's a job or just a connection to a person at a company who might have some inside knowledge about something that you're trying to use. Yeah, it's also a way to get exposure to a lot of sort of the experts in the sort of giants in the space that you might not see oth otherwise.

Colin: Well, and even at a conference, like I think, I'm not sure how many people were at Rails Conf, but the Ruby Conf tend to be smaller. Or you have these regional events like, and I'll give a plug for if you're on the East coast and you're into Ruby blue Ridge Ruby Conference is coming up in June. And that's being organized by Jeremy Smith and a few of his co organizers. But like those are the kinds of small Ruby meetups that I miss. The, the, there was the Mountain West Ruby conference. There was. I think the next Ruby Comp, the official one from Ruby Central's in San Diego this year, later this year. And just loved seeing that. I think the thing that was very interesting to see at Ros Comp this year was there were panels and discussions with Ruby Central around how can Ruby Central help you and vice versa. Like how, you know, what does Ruby Central need help with? Ruby Central runs Ruby Gems, they also run Rails Conf and Ruby conf. And so they're like, we wanna help you, but we also want help knowing like, like how can we help? You doing more conferences, more meetups, things like that. How do we help increase like diversity and, and inclusion at, in terms of are there time zones, are there countries, are there parts of the world that we're just not hitting it? Is this two US centric? You know, Rails Conf and Ruby Conf mostly happen here in the US but there's also a bunch of really cool conferences around the world that happen. In fact, The Rails Foundation is gonna be running Rails World which is gonna be an Amsterdam later this year. And I think the plan for that is to move it around the world, so it'll be like a traveling tour. You know, India does not have an official Rails conference. Same for Australia. And there's a lot of people in both of those countries. But it's a big commitment to go from Australia all the way to a rails conf in the United States, like for a week or whatever it looks like. It's, it's exciting to see cuz I think we've been hearing a lot of people talking about rails is dead. Right? We hear that I think at every, every year that someone decides to bang that drum. And part of it is getting new early career developers into the language, right? We can't just be hiring seniors and, and things like that. But I'm excited cuz like Ruby Central knows that, you know, blue Ridge, Ruby, what can we do to help them? Right, and what can we do to help? You know, de Reno is not Ruby specific, so it wouldn't make sense there. But if I wanted to get more involved, if you're a Rubyist and you want to get involved with Ruby Gems, like great material, if you're looking for a job for your resume, things like that, volunteering at conferences, it puts you on a stage similar to like if you're a speaker at a conference that helps you to meet people. And like you nailed it with hanging out with your friends. Right. For me, it was like a whole bunch of people that I knew on the internet. And now I can say we went to dinners together, we went on runs together, we did all this stuff together, and we have something more than just like Twitter conversations about work stuff that we can fall back on. And, and I think that's, that's huge.

CJ: Absolutely, especially when building trust with these people who you know, you might want to go on their podcast or they might wanna come on this podcast or do a live stream together, or, you know, kind of, it, it deepens that, that trust in the relationship that you can continue to build on over time. There's also like so many conferences. I think one of the things that I was surprised by as a developer advocate was just the sheer number of conferences that exist across lots of different language, language specific things. There's also, you know, framework specific things, or even, I mean, like aws, they have like, or company specific conferences. And so we've got some that are listed here. And I think there's also a bunch of different websites that you can go to, but yeah, I mean, how do you find the conferences you want to go to? Do you have a subset that you kind of narrow in on? I know for me, I like going to Ruby Comp and Rails Conf cuz we get to go see friends. I also really loved going to MicroCon the year that I went to that. And then a, a long time ago I used to go to DEFCON in Vegas like many, many years in a row. That one was like a super fun,

Colin: to go to Descon,

CJ: it's just like a party, like huge, massive, wild party. And, and that's like another, another thing is that depending on the number of people that come, it can be wildly different experience. Like, you know, Ruby Comp is like, I dunno, 500, 600 people, whereas Defcon is like 10,000 or more people. So yeah,

Colin: Yeah. And it's gonna be harder to find people. I mean, strangely, in a larger conference, it's harder to find small groups of people. Whereas like at a regional like Blue Ridge, I think Jeremy's aiming for like 150 people, right? And they're gonna go like Tube the river and go on a hike and like it's like awesome cuz you have this shared experience. Whereas a Defcon, it's like if you go post like who wants to go to dinner, it's probably gonna be like shouting into a void. Cause there's just less of that shared experience. There's just, too many people. So I take that into account like G D C Game Developer Conference is a good example. It's lots of languages, lots of tech. Huge conference. Right? And same with, I don't know if WWDC is as in person anymore. I think it's been more shifted towards online. But there's the conferences where it's a company speaking at you with all their specific stuff. Those ones, I think I'll watch the keynote online, like that's fine. I don't really think that that's the thing for me, but. The startup weekends, the micro confs, the people building stuff, and like those are really fun. So yeah, we'll definitely include a list here. There's definitely been a shift towards like, conferences around your language and business. So like rails, sass, micro comp less of like, we're gonna talk about the internals of Ruby and things like that. So kind of a little bit of everything for everybody.

CJ: Yeah, there's even, I mean, all things open and that conference and G D C or I, I can't remember what it's called, but there's just a bunch of just general conferences too, which. Tend to happen in really fun, cool places like a water slide park or like, you know, Disneyland or wherever. So I don't know. Lot, lots of, lots of lots of opportunity to go out and meet people who are into the same stuff that you're into. So,

Colin: Totally. Yeah. I think this episode is definitely a little bit of a, like a pallet cleanser from our more tech focused talks. But I think like the, the the CTA for everybody is to go look and see what, what developer community you have in your local area, maybe in your state if you can find something online. Or if you can get your company to send you to a conference. I think I've found personally doing CFPs, I think we did an episode on this a while back on like how to apply to be a speaker. It, it's just such a game changer. Going to a conference by yourself is one thing. Going to a conference as a speaker means that you're gonna have a built-in group of people who are gonna come ask you questions afterwards. You can go hang out and get lunch. Things like that. So I think it's a pretty important thing. This job being online is, is not just about the work and the code, it's developing friendships and getting to meet people and getting outside even. It's full circle to where we started. Do some, some tech forest bathing.

CJ: Totally. And I do come home from conferences often. Well, number one, like the all day seeing people is tough for me as an introvert and I do need to like go back to the hotel room and recharge. But coming home from conferences, I definitely would always feel like this wind beneath my sails about like, oh, I saw so many cool things and met so many cool people that you know, you get inspired and motivated and. It's, yeah, it's invigorating. It's, I don't know, very different from forest bathing, but a different yeah, a different way to

Colin: You might, you might have to go do some forest bathing after a conference just to reset.

CJ: Yeah, totally. All right. I think that's the pod right there. So as always, you can head over to buildandlearn.dev to check out all the links and resources in the show notes. We'll see you next time.